Fabulous idea. We second the motion!!

~~Doublesaj & Old Blue~~
P6 F22 V5 A10 HH1


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I like this idea!

Deb (SpringChick)

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Dog Scouts Troop"
wrote:
> The needeeps had this thought hidden in one of their posts, I
thought it was a good idea that no one had yet commented on so I
thought I would 'expose' it to anyone who might not have read their
entire post (It could be like the old "What's new" section used to
be):
>
> trouble with a box they can post it,and it stays there. So the people
who plant boxes can check in from time to time and if they see a
problem with one of their boxes they can go out and try to correct it
so people don't travel half way across the State for nothing.Almost
like the clue list for troubled boxes so the owner of the box can
replace things that are missing or adjust the clues if people are
having a little problem with it.And once your box is fixed,it can be
taken off the troubled list,so others no it's good to go.Just an
idea.Lenny/Kathy >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Why don''t the seekers just contact the owner directly and nicely, and the
owner can adjust the clues, since we are able to adjust our own clues now.

Music Woman





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I see the benefits of it but I fear that people who can't find a box
immediatly and automatically state it is missing will make this section a
huge headache and scare others off from finding the boxes. Some boxes are
more challenging than others. I know that there is a box that has escaped
me and when I contacted the owner she stated others have had trouble as well
but it all in the interpretation of the clues. Also isn't that what the LBNA
list is for?
As I said I see both the plus and minus side of it.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dog Scouts Troop"
To: "letterboxing"
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 11:14 AM
Subject: [LbNA] idea from the needeeps exposed


> The needeeps had this thought hidden in one of their posts, I thought it
was a good idea that no one had yet commented on so I thought I would
'expose' it to anyone who might not have read their entire post (It could be
like the old "What's new" section used to be):
>
> with a box they can post it,and it stays there. So the people who plant
boxes can check in from time to time and if they see a problem with one of
their boxes they can go out and try to correct it so people don't travel
half way across the State for nothing.Almost like the clue list for troubled
boxes so the owner of the box can replace things that are missing or adjust
the clues if people are having a little problem with it.And once your box is
fixed,it can be taken off the troubled list,so others no it's good to
go.Just an idea.Lenny/Kathy >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

(ah, why not :-))

The idea of online logging has been around for a long time (at least since
the inception of geocaching.com), and actually well before then. Certainly
looks like a good idea, so, just to be contrary, I'll comment on why I
dislike it (tho I am certainly in a huge minority on this one :-))

First, I'll grant that the specific idea proposed (we found the box and
it is damaged) is different (yet a subset) the general category of online
logging, and has more positives and less negatives than the general idea,
but, in reality, anything you do will be the general idea. So I'll yada
yada about that ...

I think my objection to this idea stems from my early worldview of
letterboxing as simulated treasure hunting. Hider interacts with place
and creates textual representation of place and location of box (what I
call "the map"), in such a way that _he_ would be able to find the box
(pirates didn't write treasure maps for others to find -- the idea was to
jog _their_ memory, but be _obscure_ to others (we, of course, take some
liberties to make the game playable). This mapping is necessarily
imperfect. Hunter interacts with map and place to find box. Further,
over time the place decays (changes) (as does the text, actually), and
the mapping becomes more imperfect. This represents two sides of what
I call the golden triangle of treasure hunting. The thrill of discovery
occurs when these imperfections are experienced.

The side of the triangle that is missing is the interaction of the
hunter and the placer. Information flow on this link is perfect, thus
thrill in the gaps is eliminated (there are other thrills of course,
for some, but these don't fall in the category of simulated treasure
hunting).

Online logging of this and that about a box has the effect of connecting
that link (once someone has found the box, they generally have the
same info as the hider -- if they _haven't_ found the box, the negative
information presented helps to bridge the link as well. Keep in mind
the simple act of stating "I found box X" conveys tons of information
along that link -- intelligent people can differ on how much -- suffice
it to say that it is much more information that the author presented you
with (any more information presented necessarily conveys the "I found
the box" plus other stuff)).

To make a long story short, it removes the mystique.

Now, the obvious objection to my words is this -- how is that different
from the talk list?

My answer is twofold --

a) I think there _is_ too much direct chitchat on the list about where
the letterboxes are hidden (like I said, I'm in the minority :-)).

b) In my philosophy, it comes down to the metaphor of "fermentation"
vs "distillation" (two ways to make booze -- beer and wine vs hard
liquor). I can't explain how I use this metaphor to think about things,
but the gist is that "fermented" things tend to be mellow and just
right, while "distilled" things seem to have the risk of being too much,
or a good idea taken too far (selective breeding vs genetic engineering)
(this is a metaphor, not starting a debate about genetics or drinking).
(Hoyt Axton displays this metaphor brilliantly in the lyrics of the song
_The Pusher_ (most famous recording by Steppenwolf)).

Anyway, I see the list as fermentation -- some information leaking
around that is generally lost to all but the most intrepid
hunters -- a diffusion of information thru the community, while online
logging is the information distilled right out there as an addendum to
what the author has presented as his puzzle.

So, that's my philosophy on this in a (long) nutshell.

That's my main point. I guess there are some other (minor) things as well --

> so people don't travel half way across the State for nothing

* In my mind its about place and puzzle. So I don't care if there is no
box when I show up. I think if a box is done well, it won't be "for
nothing".

* I think if you are going to do this, you have to make sure you have
some sort of safeguard so clueless[1] or malicious people can dis boxes
easily (falsely report them missing, falsely claim landmarks have changed,
etc). Keep in mind that 3 people claiming the box is missing, and posting
it in an online log, when in fact the box is there but they could not find
it, will have the effect of dissing it. (Many, many people, for example,
have reported mapsurfer #2 missing, but it has always been there when I
went).

In a normal community (small town or tribe), reputation solves this
problem (we learn who is clueless or malicious, and people learn not to
be clueless or malicious). As communities become virtual, large, or both,
these problems become harder to solve (e-bay has solved this very well --
its too much for what we do, but illustrates the scope of the potential
problem).

* Alot of my thought is the thrill of discovery and mystique. Expanding
in that vein, there is the thrill of the _real_ log in the _real_ woods,
and being a member of that exclusive club that has made it there.


Keep in mind that I have no more say than anyone else in whether these
ideas are implemented, and I'm not trying to say "bad idea" -- just
present some words from a different point of view about where I derive
fun in this game (one of the reasons I prefer it to geocaching -- if
you like the geocaching model, do some geocaching, but don't put online
logs on my boxes and turn them into geocaches).

Cheers

[1] don't take the term "clueless" the wrong way. No other piece of
short language comes to mind to mean "one who thinks they know but
in fact does not".